Positions System Development Discussion

[Conqueror]

I’m creating this thread to house discussion on the continued development of the positions system. Including feedback and ideas for improving it’s features.

Ideas discussed here that are added to the roadmap will be added as issues to the Mimir github repository: GitHub - AscendedTrading/Mimir: The system that powers Valhalla and all it's features

Currently things that are being implemented are:

Options Integration

The system will offer commands to create callouts for complex options strategies and offer “quick selects” for options strike and expiration. Strategies with more than one option will support selecting strike and expiration for each option required for the strat. This is almost fully implemented at this point, just needs a little more testing.

Performance Tracking

This is something I go back and forth on how to properly implement. Overall the positions system is not about creating a ranking of individual performance and while this seems counter intuitive it’s because I personally believe that the data gathered from having most of the community actively using it (knowing what plays are most popular, when the majority of people are entering and exiting, etc.) is far more useful than knowing what specific member has had the greatest luck in the market and I feel as though displaying win/loss records will discourage usage across the broader membership. All in all, everyone loses and wins some and it’s the plays themselves that the focus needs to be on. Anyone can call a winner and everyone sometimes does.

So the current idea is to do it in a broad sense, “people in this play are green on average”, etc.

Cost Basis Tracking and Signals

Based on entries we can make an educated guess on cost basis using volume (once options are fully integrated). So the average cost basis will be displayed for callouts on a particular play to aid in decision making. One of the first “smart” features of the positions system will be alerts when a particular play is at the average cost basis. This data can eventually be used to enhance the (currently shelved for reworking) “Trade Ideas” functionality’s decision making abilities.

Forced Forum Threads

The system comes together when the last part of the callout function is implemented, which is forcing the creation of threads when the first position is taken and archiving the thread when the last postiion is closed. One of the achilles heels of the system at the moment is that there isn’t a great place to discuss plays that are ongoing, with this implemented, there will always be a thread and it will be linked to the positions display like below:

The thread creation will be done completely through the command so there won’t be a need to go to the forum to manually do anything.

Forum Commands

Lastly the forum is going to gain the ability to trigger actions on positions in the same way Discord can except with a probably more streamlined user experience. You’ll be able to enter and exit positions listed with a button click, join plays from threads and so on.

So that’s kinda where things are at the moment, feel free to share any thoughts or opinions you might have.

[Josh]

What about the ability to put a Trade Time in, that way if you get a fill and arent around to call out, it can be accurate.

[Conqueror]

The problem with this is that since the system relies on user input if we go this route people can start pushing entries back to make their callouts “seem” better which means the “accountability” aspect takes a substantial hit imo.

For full transparency, aside from the obvious cool factor and usefulness, the positions system was created as an answer to our reoccurring issue with people in the community becoming “popular traders” despite not actually making reliable callouts, or further, making a bunch of callouts and quoting which one was right. This system forces people to be held accountable so that’s why the current restrictions are by design in most cases.

[Conqueror]

Forgot about the watchlist function.

Watchlist Functionality

One more callout command will be added to create a “watchlist” entry to denote plays that you’re intending to take entry on. To make the experience as effortless as possible, watchlist entries are simply modified by taking a “real entry” on the same position. The “ticker” field of the callout entry command will be modified to offer an “autocomplete (the select list like on the update command)” that allows watchlist items to be quickly tapped and the entry you take will consider the “watchlist” as the true “start” of the position for the sake of the positions chart, etc.

[TheHouse]

This is just unbelievably cool, Im loving this system, it makes callouts so easy. I appreciate the hard work, adds a ton of value to Valhalla.

Would it make sense to have a quick tab to select, “Scalp” “swing” “leap” “lotto” ? We ofcourse wouldn’t want a long questionnaire to make a callout but would be nice to have a little context to some plays. Thanks again!

[jjcox82]

The watchlist feature is awesome. And should be easily used. I spend 2 minutes trying to figure out how to enter my command entry and feel hesitant at that point to make someone chase. But with it being streamlined should be much easier.

Also looking forward to trying out the forum entry callouts. Awesome stuff.

[derfam]

Awesome as always, looking forward to the community watchlists. Would it be possible to add a “join” button to the callouts in TF? Would beat having to type out the callout feature in full.

And is there any functionality to be able to get Mimir to start putting buy/sell signals in the forums on these threads when they’re created, but so it doesnt spam the thread have it in a different area on the thread, maybe somewhere it just displays “current signal”? Maybe even a chart with the support/ resistance callouts on it.

[Conqueror]

I think this is a good idea, will give better info to use for aging positions out of the system as well. Scalps are checked weekly, swings, bi-weekly, etc.

WIll be implemented for sure.

[Conqueror]

Join functionality already exists, you can right click callout embeds in TF → select “Apps” and there is an option to join a callout there.

Chart and signals are in the pipeline. What was the “Trade Ideas” system is going to be repurposed into attaching itself to threads with open positions, displaying it on the thread without clogging it is the trick for sure.

[Conqueror]

Currently working on the implementation of the watchlist functionality.

In the meantime I’ve made a small change which now autoconnects positions on SPY & SPX to the Think Tank thread unless they’ve specified another thread in the command:

The Think Tank: Macro Discussion and Opportunities Brainstorming

The purpose of this thread is to house the broad economic discussion that we have been seeing largely take place on trading-floor. During the Ukraine situation we had a central thread that spun off multiple discussions and ideas. Those ideas were taken to their own threads and traded on. This thread exists to capture the spirit of that “main thread” for discussions on the market as a whole and opportunities that may arise from the current economic conditions. We have some smart people here and I’d like to see more of their discussion front and center so that we can all try to figure out how best to profit from the opportunities together.

[Conqueror]

Alright so after a little bit of thinking I’ve wound up with a somewhat experimental way of handling the watchlist command that I think keeps it in line with how “callouts” are currently made (since the command is going to be the replacement for !callout, etc.)

The command usage is as seen below.

You’ll notice there isn’t a ticker field or anything other than a callout. This is because this command works purely by parsing tokens in the callout instead of relying on different commands to create, update and remove watchlist entries. Tickers are to be formatted as “cashtags” as Twitter calls them in the $TICKER format. In the example, both $OKTA and $AMC are simple cashtags. Mimir will search these out and perform one of two actions. If there is no existing open watchlist entry for one of the tickers, Mimir will create a new watchlist entry. If one is found, it will grab that watchlist entry and attach this callout as an update.

Now the third cashtag is prefaced with a -, so -$KR. This is how watchlist entries are removed/closed. So full management of the watchlist is achieved just through text updates.

I’m going to create some auxiliary commands (/watchlist create, /watchlist remove) probably just in case that is preferred but I think the majority will probably utilize /callout watchlist. Also watchlists will be integrated similarly to positions where every members watchlist can be pulled via a command and there will be a display on the forum as well.

The embeds for the command are dynamic and all references to tickers have the $ and -$ instances removed. If multiple tickers are found, no chart image is displayed (primarily because there isn’t an elegant way to display multiple charts in a single embed):

NOTE: The /ES in the above example is indeed accomplished with $/ES

And if only one ticker is mentioned, the chart image is included:

NOTE: The embeds now state whether tickers were added, updated or removed from the watchlist in the title.

Not quite ready to go live quite yet (needs markers on the chart and integration with the positions commands) but should be up early tomorrow. Will update when it’s live with a little more info on how it integrates with the entry callout command.

[Conqueror]

Watchlist function is now live.

There is a lot of work to go to get it integrated to the extent that I plan, but for now, this is officially the new method for making callouts that are not connected to an open position. Once a position is opened, all updates should be done through the position itself and not on the watchlist.

Using the Watchlist Command

In order to update your watchlist you use the /callout watchlist command:

In order to add or update tickers to/on your watchlist you type the ticker name as a “cashtag” with a $ in front of it. So in this example above, I’m creating watchlist entries with both $SPY and $AMC. (The bug with SPY and the period is fixed) This creates the following embed:

Now if I want to update a watchlist entry, I just reference a ticker again like so:

And as you can see in the embed, the entry was updated. Also, because I only referenced one ticker, the chart image is displayed on the embed. So when speaking generally you can use multiple tickers in an embed, but if you’re speaking about a specific ticker you get a more detailed view.

Lastly, if we’re looking to remove tickers from our watchlist, we can do so by adding a - in front of our cashtag like so:

In the above you’ll notice that I’m removing AMC from my watchlist by using -$AMC. With results in the following:

How it integrates with the “entry” callout command

Any positions taken on a ticker with an open watchlist entry are linked to the watchlist entry automatically. For ease, the ticker field in the /callout entry command now features an autocomplete that suggests tickers from your watchlist:

It is not necessary to tap these, they are just for reference. You can tap them if you want to though and they will fill out the ticker spot for you.

How to think about Watchlists vs Positions

Positions can be taken without touching the watchlist feature as you did before. Watchlists are for chronicling and remembering tickers that are being watched by you and the community at large that either have catalysts that haven’t happened yet or that positions have not been taken on yet. For instance a good usage for this is “tagging” companies with earnings coming up that you’re interested in. In the near future, this will be a way to get Mimir to watch that particular earnings release and push any related information to #trading-floor.

Think of a watchlist entry as a folder to store all your positions on a particular play. If you’re making multiple entries and exits on a play you’d currently only be able to view them “ALL” over time, but by using watchlists, we’ll be able to grab a group of separate positions connected to the same watchlist entry and section those off for viewing.

As I said before this command now replaces all previous functions for making callouts and combined with positions will complete our system for gathering data on what the community is not only playing but thinking about playing.

[Conqueror]

Expansion of “cashtags” within Forum & Auto-Thread Linking

The forum now supports “cashtags” within posts and produces the same functionality as using them within the callout command in Discord with two added tricks:

1. For Watchlists - You can update and remove watchlist entries by using the cashtag syntax like is explained above within posts on the forum. Creating entries is not currently supported. Any entries that are updated will also have the forum thread linked to the watchlist entry automatically.

2. For Positions - Any positions you have open will be automatically linked to the thread you’re posting in.

Usage

The use for this feature is for when I have open positions/watchlist entries and I’m discussing them in a thread, I’ll use the cashtag syntax so they’re linked and people know where I’m discussing them. For instance if I have a position on SPY and I’m discussing it in the thinktank thread, I would simply use the cashtag $SPY and a link to that thread would show up under all SPY positions like so:

This simplifies the process of connecting forum threads to positions/watchlist entries. Currently an embed is only generated in #positions-stream because the forum notifications are still handled by Discourse, but that will change soon.

[Conqueror]

In the above post, the cashtag I used which is visible in the editing dialog:

Becomes a link to the symbols page (https://forums.ascendedtrading.com/symbols/SPY) for that ticker when the post is loaded:

The usage of that cashtag also updated my pre-existing watchlist entry for SPY like so (gunna need to filter some of the stuff out):

So once the forum notification system is moved to Mimir, updating things from the forum or from the command will look the exact same.

[Conqueror]

Just one added note, for anyone confused on the Watchlist functionality, you can ignore it until everything is completely integrated. It’s somewhat non-sensical (unless you were one of the ones asking for this functionality) until the full thing comes together. So for now, just focus on using the Positions command and use cashtags in any forum posts you make about your positions.

[Conqueror]

The watchlist command can now be used to create entries on the forum as well as in Discord.

Today I completed Mimir’s replacement for the Discourse plugin we were using for forum notifications. This allows for different notifications to be generated depending on contents of the post, who posted it, where it was posted, etc. So, posts within the Research & Analysis categories (and crypto) which include “cashtag” tickers will trigger the following embed:

This is sent to #trading-floor and #positions-stream. Notice that since the watchlist update is from a forum post, a link to the post in included in the embed because this replaces the “normal” forum notification. I may alter the style a little more to match the normal forum notifications but this’ll work for now.

A post in that same thread without a cashtag produces the normal notification:

So where is this going?

While the watchlist command is still confusing at the moment as I’m hashing out some quirks of it’s implementation, it’s headed in a pretty crucial direction. While positions elegantly detail what everyone is playing, the watchlist will detail what everyone is thinking about playing and will become the missing link between Discord and the Forum. To put it plainly, the watchlist functionality will become the backbone of collaboratively researching plays in the community and staying on top of “what Valhalla is working on”.

[justmonika]

I wonder how useful a “winrate” feature would be here based on user callouts. Like, based on prices at the entry/exit times and whether the user was long/short, we can figure out whether they made the right call, and calculate the frequency/magnitude of their gains/losses. Sort of like how on kinfo.com you can see users’ winrate and their average winnings.

Idk about other users, but I think I’d find this information pretty useful.

[Conqueror]

This is something that we’ve discussed previously but have never really landed on a concrete decision on.

While the answer is “of course” I can track winrate and profitability of individual users, I don’t think doing so is really best for the platform we’re trying to build. I think we owe a lot of how quickly adopted the positions system was by the userbase to the fact that there isn’t this element involved. For instance if users have a losing streak, I think those statistics would discourage them from making additional positions callouts.

At the end of the day, there are tons of apps that do that and they all see very marginal adoption. In the case of Valhalla I currently believe having an accurate picture of what everyone is playing is far more important than knowing what user has had the best run of luck lately.

I’m open to more opinions on this of course so others can feel free to chime in.

The currently planned features as far as “performance tracking” are to do so “on average”, for example for open positions on SPX, the system would calculate that the members in that play are “red on average” or “green on average” but past that I haven’t really planned to do much for th reasons above.

[SuckyMayor]

My two cents on the matter is that using the system and providing thoughtful insight into why you’ve taken the position that encourages us all to be better traders is way more important than putting a dollar value on it. If you’re a high risk trader who explicitly plays OTM short expiry options, you’re going to look better than someone who is equally good at taking positions but also shelters them from risk. Because we can’t easily quantify profitability and risk, I’d rather just shy away from the whole concept.

People here should be attracted to traders who like to trade similar ways to them, and those traders should encourage one another and use each other as resources to become even better. Don’t sully that with a dollar amount.

[Brutus]

Here is a possible compromise: Once you have a good bit of data on these plays, say six months or a year, the mods calculate win rates and begin to develop levels for traders. If we have a few traders who kill it and win a lot more than all others, let’s highlight them in some way. If someone is losing consistently, newer members should have some warning or maybe the mods privately ask them to not post their trades till they display better skills.

I for one find it hard to sift through all the data due to limited time so i like the idea of highlighting good information.